Has there ever been a single recorded instance of the mythical "good guy with a gun" actually preventing a massacre instead of causing one ?
Originally shared by NewsThump
America is beginning to wonder precisely when a good guy with a gun is actually going to prevent a mass shooting.
http://newsthump.com/2015/11/28/good-guy-with-a-gun-fails-to-prevent-2708th-successive-mass-shooting/
Lay some of the blame on what has been called "Radio Rawanda" - hate tracts that tell us who to hate and what to do.
ReplyDeleteThe gun has become the modern lynching noose here in the good old US of A.
"Deus ex barreto" - god from (my) gun.
Growing up we never would have thought to answer life's frustrations and unfairness by going to the gun. And dad had several. We used to reload ammo, target shoot an hunt deer and birds, with very limited success :) ... I gave it up after one too many incoming rounds from an idiot on the next hill came past with the unmistakable fluttering sound of a bullet dropping trajectory over our heads.
These events may become shoot outs but they can't be prevented until their nature is already apparent.
Besides what's espoused here is the Cheney doctrine: meet all PERCEIVED THREATS with immediate and overwhelming force and clean up the truth later.
ReplyDeletehttp://gunssavelives.net/incident-map/
ReplyDeleteI found several massacre saves in there. But you have obviously pre-judged the outcome, so I will leave you to your insults in place on data.
ReplyDeleteIn the morning - I'm going to bed now. In the meantime, I'll just point out that your "argument" amount to nothing more than insults. It would be great if you could do better!
ReplyDeleteHas there ever been a single recorded instance of the mythical "good guy with a gun" actually preventing a massacre instead of causing one ?
ReplyDeleteI've realised that my question is hugely poorly defined, and possibly even a non-sequitur. The only way a GGWAG could prevent a massacre instead of causing one would be if the assailant had some other weapon. Which is possible, but not terribly likely. You'd have to shoot someone wielding a sword or something.
Then there's the ambiguous definition of "causing massacre". Does it still count as a massacre if the defender kills all the assailants ? How many people do we need for a massacre in any case ?
If I rephrase my question :
Has there ever been a single recorded instance of the mythical "good guy with a gun" saving any number of innocent people (other than themselves) threatened with death ?
... then the answer is unambiguously "yes", e.g. :
http://gunssavelives.net/self-defense/concealed-carrier-captures-suspect-who-stabbed-elderly-man-several-times-at-a-bus-stop/
Which also notes :
"This incident is the one of the most common types of defensive gun uses. That is, one in which no one was actually shot. Despite this being one of the most common types of defensive gun uses, these incidents are often not included in statistics about defensive gun uses."
However, I'm very skeptical of the claim that this is one of the "most common types of defensive gun uses". I don't have any numbers, but this is certainly not the impression I get from reading the website (though possibly many such incidents go unreported).
The impression I do get is that the overwhelming majority of "self defence" incidencts occur in order to prevent burglaries. How is it "self defence" to kill someone who was trying to steal your stuff ? Is your TV really worth that much ? They weren't threatening your life, they were threating your ownership of your television.
I also note that many of the robbers (again, I'm not going to get statistical on this) have fake weapons and therefore pose little actual threat. The response to theft has been killing, i.e. making a bad situation much worse. It reads much less as "guns save lives" and much more as "guns save televisions".
Still, it would be an interesting site if they had some statistical table of how many incidents occurred, what weapon the assailants/defenders had, what the purpose of the assailant was, etc. As it is it's a collection of anecdotes, and not as useful as it could be.
Rhys Taylor that site is indeed anecdotal, and I think your comments about it are on point.
ReplyDeleteHere is one of the incidents I found where a drug addict pointed a loaded weapon at several people. The threat he posed was ended by the GGWAG, who then administered first aid:
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2015/02/21/good-guy-with-a-gun-west-virginia-pharmacist-kills-robber-n1960360
Miller said although every case is different, Radcliff’s action was reasonable. Under state law, Miller said everyone has the right to defend themselves against deadly force and the pointing of a loaded pistol a Radcliff and other unarmed, innocent customers and employees of the store met the threshold.
Jeanne Assam, an off-duty police officer and church member meets the spirit of your original questions, I think. Per Snopes:
http://www.snopes.com/jeanne-assam/
Going back several decades, the NRA built its following by introducing membership to small gun clubs (shooting ranges privately held). So part of the deal was joining the local club automatically made you an NRA member. We would get the monthly edition of "The Rifleman" which had a regular column of anecdotal briefs describing "good guys who shot bad guys".
ReplyDeleteNothing that would bear up to statistical scrutiny but great fodder for the paranoid reader.
Just south of here in Centralia, Washington one homeowner GGWaG was convicted for shooting a burglar (unarmed) who was already fleeing from his garage.
As liberal gun owner, hunter & radio talk show host Ed Schultz cautioned an on air caller who was espousing the same wild west shoot first attitude: "you take a gun to someone your life will never be the same". He never said don't - just warned of a reckless attitude such as the Centralia homeowner: shooting someone without concern for the law will cost you your freedom.
I realize that "concealed carry trainers" will try to counter this, however the "Dodge City" attitude prevails.
I've worked around several persons who brought, left unsecured and in one case discharged a handgun in the work place. One guy even took a weapon onto a State National Guard base after lying to the security gate personnel when questioned on whether he was armed. Stupidity. In his lunch cooler. Stupidity. Where it would be out of reach at the time of greatest need. Just plain dumb. More recently another contractor's employee admitted he had a gun unsecured in his unlocked truck - on the premises of a primary school. Against the law and extremely stupid.
So far, none of these "good guys" have prevented anything nefarious while creating several opportunities for their (uncontrolled) weapons to be misused by others. I mean, a pistol left unattended on top of your desk when you go out to a meeting?! What is THAT??!!!