As scientists we are used to testing and re-testing the evidence. But that process cannot be confined to the laboratory or the library. We also need to constantly review the evidence for the value of science in our society – to check and re-tension the arguments. And an important part of that is participating in the discussion of how society values science. For some scientists that’s an uncomfortable role and tricky territory to navigate – they would rather just get on with their research. But if we are asking for public funding, we have to step up and make the argument, as powerfully and as broadly and as reasonably as we can.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/occams-corner/2015/nov/05/science-vital-campaign-argument-osborne
Politics has no place in true science. Philosophy, however, does.
ReplyDeleteThis campaign is about overall funding for science in general, not any particular area. There is particular emphasis, though, on blue-skies research rather than applied science, which has probably the least political connections of all.
ReplyDeleteWithout campaigns to maintain/increase funding, in the political climate of austerity, funding will be cut. All of science will suffer as a result. The actual process of doing research should be as detached from political concerns as much as possible, but there's no way you can avoid the simple need to get funding to do the research in the first place. And generally speaking, I'd rather that came from the government (via research councils) than any private, profit-driven corporation.
Rhys Taylor Re: "Without campaigns to maintain/increase funding, in the political climate of austerity, funding will be cut. All of science will suffer as a result."
ReplyDeleteI'm not so sure that funding is the problem. The problem is that as we've increased the total number of scientists, the number of conceptual revolutions has not also risen. That plainly suggests that there is an innovation problem in the sciences right now, and that throwing more money at the problem probably won't change it.
We need to alter the destination for this funding to be science which creates innovations, and that is what Gerald Pollack is trying to do at the Institute for Venture Science. Much of this work would necessarily relate to scientific controversies -- an area that academics have miserably failed to properly address. We can expect that many scientific innovations are currently bottled up in these scientific controversies which the public is typically not informed of. Some of these controversies have raged for a half century.
Rhys Taylor - That's what Kickstarter was created to do; get grassroots funding rather than depending on the mainstream, "political" science to support your research. Scientists need to be entrepreneurs; not politicians.
ReplyDeleteIn reality, "Blue Skies Research" is the most dependent on the politics of mainstream science because there often is no clear real world application. Either that or there's a controversial application that is not readily accepted by the mainstream.
People become scientists to do research, not raise capital. That's the last thing I want to do. You don't have to become a politician to ask politicians for money, any more than teachers or nurses are politicians when they want extra funding or a change in working conditions.
ReplyDeleteAs for their not being enough revolutions / science being political see :
http://astrorhysy.blogspot.cz/2015/10/false-consensus.html
Kickstarter is mainly about making gadgets, not doing basic research.
Rhys Taylor - Times have changed. Where it used to be organizations, regardless of size, seeking funding for research, it is now much more the individual. Sure, there are the big names like Galileo, Newton, Einstein and others. However, they were the science equivalent of starving artists. They gained more notoriety after they died than they had during their lives.
ReplyDeleteAs for Kickstarter, much like Google Plus, it can be whatever you want it to be. It's true that many people use it for funding the making of gadgets, software or music. Nevertheless, it can be use for anything a person desires.
David Lazarus
ReplyDelete"Times have changed. Where it used to be organizations, regardless of size, seeking funding for research, it is now much more the individual. "
Do you have any evidence to support that ? Honestly I find it bizarre.
"Sure, there are the big names like Galileo, Newton, Einstein and others. However, they were the science equivalent of starving artists. They gained more notoriety after they died than they had during their lives. "
Newton founded the Royal Society, Galileo was friends with the Pope, and Einstein won the Nobel prize.
"As for Kickstarter, much like Google Plus, it can be whatever you want it to be. "
Sure, but it has yet to establish itself as a good source of revenue for scientific projects. There is not yet a viable alternative for scientists whose jobs are threatened by budget cuts.
I would like to see science and profit separated as widely as possible. Science is supposed to be about the search for truth, not making as much money as possible.
Rhys Taylor - The evidence for the individual is the spike in entrepreneurship. There are a lot more individuals seeking new ways to earn money. Scientific research is a business too and the individuals with maverick ideas need a way to get funding.
ReplyDeleteGalileo was jailed and sidelined by the pope. Einstein was ridiculed most of his life. It was only after people began to take him seriously that he gained notoriety. Furthermore, he didn't win the Nobel prize for his relativity theories.
"The Nobel Prize in Physics 1921 was awarded to Albert Einstein "for his services to Theoretical Physics, and especially for his discovery of the law of the photoelectric effect""
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1921/
So, Einstein didn't receive notoriety for what he is now famous for until after he died.
Newton wasn't a good choice on my part. There are a handful of big names that can easily take his place though. Tesla comes to mind. He's still not taught about much in school and you won't hear about him in college unless you major in physics or engineering.
David Lazarus
ReplyDelete"The evidence for the individual is the spike in entrepreneurship. "
But what is the evidence that this is important for research ? I would say that practically all basic research is done at universities and other public research institutes.
"Scientific research is a business too"
Having experienced what happens when you try to run an observatory as a business, I don't think I can disagree with that more strongly. Science and business are two completely different worlds.
"Galileo was jailed and sidelined by the pope."
Only after he publically mocked him. Prior to that he was on good terms. Even knowing the Pope marked him as a prominent figure, he was hardly marginalised until after his death.
"So, Einstein didn't receive notoriety for what he is now famous for until after he died. "
True, he didn't receive the Nobel for relatively but he still got a Nobel, and you don't give Nobels to nobodies. He was also famous for relativity during his lifetime and was publishing papers in respectable journals even before relativity - he wasn't ridiculed (if he was, the eclipse experiment would never have taken place, let alone only four years after GR was published : http://www.wired.com/2009/05/dayintech_0529/). He had a very prominent, respectable academic career.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Academic_career
However, I should add :
ReplyDelete" the individuals with maverick ideas need a way to get funding"
I strongly agree with that. But it's difficult to imagine a more scientifically free environment than that of a tenured professorship in a university.
The scientific community has become the new priestly class that the rulers financially sustain and protect so that they will contribute to legitimise their political power in return. Different methodology, same function.
ReplyDelete• Priest in Ancient Egypt. History Link 101.
historylink101.com/n/egypt_1/religion_role_of_priest.htm
• Marie Parsons. Priests in Ancient Egypt. Tour Egypt. 2013.
touregypt.net/featurestories/priests.htm
• Anke Napp. Priests of Ancient Egypt. Last update: December 9, 2014.
ancient-egypt-priests.com/AE-Life-english.htm
• Devillier Donegan Enterprises. Egypt's Golden Empire. (Egypt. New Kingdom. Priests). Public Broadcasting Service (PBS). March 15, 2006.
pbs.org/empires/egypt/newkingdom/priests.html
• Ancient Egyptian religion. Wikipedia. Retrieved February 7, 2015.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_religion
URL source G+ post with excerpts and further references:
plus.google.com/+ZephyrLópezCervilla/posts/5guXUiXUVSX
Zephyr López Cervilla Don't be that guy from the internet.
ReplyDeletehttp://dilbert.com/strip/2015-06-07 (last panel only)
Never mind about ancient priests. What evidence do you have that scientists are behaving like this ?
Rhys Taylor
ReplyDelete"But what is the evidence that this is important for research ? I would say that practically all basic research is done at universities and other public research institutes."
There might not be direct evidence for it. However, the paradigm is shifting. Scientists need to be aware and take appropriate action. Universities are notoriously political. I know that from first hand observation.
"Having experienced what happens when you try to run an observatory as a business, I don't think I can disagree with that more strongly."
First, you cannot judge the success of that sort of thing by one "failure". Second, I think the paradigm shift is going to require it; like it or not. You can always hire people to help take care of the business end.
"He [Einstein] wasn't ridiculed"
From http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventors/einstein.htm
"After the war his continued public support of pacifist and Zionist goals made him the target of vicious attacks by anti-Semitic and right-wing elements in Germany. Even his scientific theories were publicly ridiculed, especially the theory of relativity."
The same thing is said here:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~szwetch/Stamps.of.Israel/18.html
Rhys Taylor Rhys, I like the comic. It's hilarious.
ReplyDeleteI would not personally use the word "priest", but there has been an important claim that scientists are trained in the graduate programs to be ideologues. This claim was made by a former Physics Today editor of 19 years -- Jeff Schmidt -- who easily fits into the category of whistleblower. He is the author of Disciplined Minds: A Critical Look at Salaried Professionals and the Soul-battering System That Shapes Their Lives -- a book which made some extraordinary claims and which went on to cause North American physics' largest freedom-of-expression case in its history. 500+ physicists signed letters to the American Institute of Physics supporting Jeff's right to make these claims. An IEEE committee ruled that Schmidt was likely fired by the AIP for writing the book.
What is extraordinary is that there aren't many people who have read -- or are even aware of -- the book.
The key excerpts are here ...
https://plus.google.com/108466508041843226480/posts/UBHrj2f3zKs
Rhys Taylor: "http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-06-07 (last panel only)"
ReplyDelete[I'm sending you five links that are not as relevant as I think they are.]
— Those links are relevant because they describe the social role of the priestly class, their rituals and the activities performed by those priests in ancient Egypt, many of them analogous or even the same as what the scientific community (particularly, the scientific establishment) is engaged today. E.g.,
«The Egyptians believed the priest played a vital role in providing for the needs of the gods. If their duties were neglected, it was believed problems would arise.»
[Likewise, many people believe today that professional scientists and researchers play a vital role in modern society, and that without them the advanced economies would collapse.]
…
«The Pharaoh would have the power to transfer or promote a priest the majority of the time. At times, they may have been selected by a committee of priests.»
[Scientists use the same two pathways to advance their careers. Today, a minority of researchers work in the private sector (I exclude academic institutions here, since most of them have become heavily dependent on government funding), but also in the ancient Egypt, where some priests would hire their services in the market (see below, "[lector] priests often worked outside their temples, hiring out their magical services to laymen.").]
— Priest in Ancient Egypt. History Link 101.
historylink101.com/n/egypt_1/religion_role_of_priest.htm
«the Egyptian priest offered and performed material and ritually magic services to the god of his temple, to ensure that gods presence would continue on earth, and thus maintain the harmony and order of the world as it had been created.»
[Today scientists are hired to monitor and evaluate all sort of processes and phenomena.]
…
«the priests were administrators and record-keepers. Temples were the residences of the gods, but the enclosure also included workshops, libraries, and estates. The priests and their scribes and assistants had a lot to take up their attention.»
[The modern equivalent to that sort of temples would be academic institutions such as university campuses, and research centres.]
…
«The priestly class of society grew continually, playing an increasing role in the economy and in government as the dynasties went by.»
…
«Career priests were appointed to each temple, their numbers depending on the importance of the deity and the wealth of the temple.»
…
«Though there was no Sacred Holy Book of Scripture, there were ritual and religious texts, applicable to temple practices, which the priests used.»
[Likewise, today scientists follow more or less rigid protocols, publish the results of their work in a certain standardised way in order to get grants, go to symposia and give lectures, wear funny costumes, etc.]
…
«The sacred texts were read or performed by a very special type of religious functionary known as kher heb, the lector priest. The aura of mystery surrounding the written word gave lector priests a powerful position and their feature in several stories such as King Khufu and the Magicians.»
…
«The lector priest had a duty to recite the sacred texts exactly as they were written in the rituals performed before the cult statue of the deity. Deviation from the ordained words would have offended the god, so the words were always read from the book, not from memory.»
[This may be analogous to the scientific method, the statistical analysis, complementary tests, etc.]
…
«then came into the temple. Before entering a temple for their service, they did abstain from sexual contact.»
ReplyDelete…
«It should not be thought that, since priests were often bureaucrats, and they had no recourse to special indoctrination in sacred scripture, that it was an easy matter to become a priest, or that just anyone did. There are of course instances when a father passed his priestly office to his son, grandson, or other family member, or the office was in fact purchased. The office was coveted, for its privileges and its prestige. And of course, the King could in fact appoint anyone he wished to any priestly office anywhere in Egypt.
[The path to become a researcher is also quite long and selective, candidates subject to many filters, discretionally appointed by mentors, university departments, grant application reviewers, etc.]
But priesthood entailed duties and responsibilities and expectations as well. In any case, however the priestly candidate came to the office, he was inducted by virtue of a ritual.»
[This may be analogous to a PhD thesis defence.]
…
«At times such as these, the people could even come forth and seek the gods advice in the form of an oracle.
[Scientists are often hired to make predictions about the future.]
Earlier it was mentioned that priests must also serve as administrative bureaucrats, managing the temple estates and keep records of the temple storehouses and workshops.»
[Many scientists are also involved in that sort of activities]
…
«The overseers of the estates and granaries, scribes, soldiers, all reported to the high priests of their temple.
Priests had to learn writing and reading, and learn certain religious manuals by heart to understand some theology. Ritual texts however, were often read directly from scrolls, not said by heart, since even one word out of place would negate the powerful ritual act in progress.
[Analogous to academic training that is required today to become a professional scientist or researcher.]
The highest-ranking priests also attended councils of state in the royal palace, and accompanied the king during his jubilee celebrations or on his trips abroad.»
[en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Academy_of_Sciences
sites.nationalacademies.org/International/INTERNATIONAL_052203
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_President's_Council_of_Advisors_on_Science_and_Technology
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Society
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_Medical_Sciences,_United_Kingdom
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Academy
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Office_for_Science ]
— Marie Parsons. Priests in Ancient Egypt. Tour Egypt. 2013.
touregypt.net/featurestories/priests.htm
«At least since the New Kingdom, some initiation rituals were part of the introduction to priesthood, involving with high probability vows to keep purity, not to take advantage of the office, and perhaps obedience to the superiors.»
[This may be comparable to the disclosure of any conflicts of interest.]
…
«In the Late Period and during the Graeco-Roman time, the priests defined themselves more and more as an elite of knowledge and keepers of sacred traditions - probably in order to compensate the loss of real political power under the foreign rulers of Egypt. Education and purity became even more important than before and the rules became more detailed and sophisticated. So to speak, the Egyptian temples and their priests formed the very embodiment of Egyptian culture and religion.»
ReplyDelete[An elite of knowledge, that's how most scientists think of themselves.]
— Anke Napp. Priests of Ancient Egypt. Last update: December 9, 2014.
ancient-egypt-priests.com/AE-Life-english.htm
«At the top of the tree was the high priest, or 'sem priest', the 'First Prophet of the God'. He was usually old and wise, and would have been a political advisor to the pharaoh»
…
Interpreting the universe
On the next rung down were priests who specialized in watching the universe and interpreting its movements. Some were horologists, measuring the hours in the day. Others studied astrology, a discipline which was central to Egyptian mythology, architecture and medicine. The movements of the universe determined temple opening times, crop planting and the level of the river Nile.
[Many of the above activities have been retaken by professional scientists, who are "specialized in watching the universe and interpreting its movements."]
One of the most holy jobs a priest could have was to care for an oracle, which usually took the form of a statue. The importance of the job required these priests (known as 'stolists') to keep themselves as pure as possible. To do this, they would shave off all their body hair.»
…
[Analogous to the predictive work performed by scientists. Different methodology, same function.]
«Rules of the game
Whatever their position all priests had to obey a number of strict rules. They could not eat fish (which was seen as peasant food) or wear wool, because most animal products were viewed as unclean. Many priests took three or four baths a day in sacred pools in order to keep themselves pure and male priests were usually circumcised.
[Analogous to standardised procedures required in the lab to perform certain tasks.]
Amenhotep III Money, money, money
The priesthood in Egypt had started out quite simply, with only a few temples for priests to look after. But as the empire expanded and the money began pouring in, the number of temples increased dramatically. This made the priesthood more important and far wealthier than ever before. In particular, the priests responsible for the major gods, such as Amen Re, held a lot of power. By the time Amenhotep III came to power, they were arguably more important than the pharaoh himself. This is because only they could interpret the will of a god and the pharaoh had a duty to fulfill that will.
[Research centres nowadays also get much more funding than in the past, and they may hire thousands of scientists, engineers and other workers. Likewise, scientists are also perceived by the much of the population as the most capable and prepared individuals to interpret the world/universe, and that the rulers should follow their expert advice.]
Something new under the sun
The increased power of the priesthood helps explain why Akenhaten decided to build a new capital at Amarna and change religion. Instead of worshipping many gods, he decreed that the only god was Aten, the sun god, and that only the pharaoh himself could interpret his will.
But Akenhaten's religious fervor brought the empire to the brink of disaster. After his death, his son, Tutankhamen, denounced him as a heretic. The old religion was brought back and, once again, powerful and wealthy priests controlled much of the country.»
ReplyDelete— Devillier Donegan Enterprises. Egypt's Golden Empire. (Egypt. New Kingdom. Priests). Public Broadcasting Service (PBS). March 15, 2006.
pbs.org/empires/egypt/newkingdom/priests.html
«During the Old and Middle Kingdoms, there was no separate class of priests; instead, many government officials served in this capacity for several months out of the year before returning to their secular duties. Only in the New Kingdom did professional priesthood become widespread, although most lower-ranking priests were still part-time. All were still employed by the state, and the pharaoh had final say in their appointments.[76] However, as the wealth of the temples grew, the influence of their priesthoods increased, until it rivaled that of the pharaoh. In the political fragmentation of the Third Intermediate Period (c. 1070–664 BC), the high priests of Amun at Karnak even became the effective rulers of Upper Egypt.[77] The temple staff also included many people other than priests, such as musicians and chanters in temple ceremonies. Outside the temple were artisans and other laborers who helped supply the temple's needs, as well as farmers who worked on temple estates. All were paid with portions of the temple's income. Large temples were therefore very important centers of economic activity, sometimes employing thousands of people.[78]»
…
«The Egyptians used oracles to ask the gods for knowledge or guidance. Egyptian oracles are known mainly from the New Kingdom and afterward, though they probably appeared much earlier. People of all classes, including the king, asked questions of oracles, and, especially in the late New Kingdom their answers could be used to settle legal disputes or inform royal decisions.[86]»
…
«The means of discerning the god's will gave great influence to the priests who spoke and interpreted the god's message.[87]»
…
«Magic was closely associated with the priesthood. Because temple libraries contained numerous magical texts, great magical knowledge was ascribed to the lector priests who studied these texts. These priests often worked outside their temples, hiring out their magical services to laymen. Other professions also commonly employed magic as part of their work, including doctors, scorpion-charmers, and makers of magical amulets.»
…
«The importance of oracles as a means of decision-making grew, as did the wealth and influence of the oracles' interpreters, the priesthood. These trends undermined the traditional structure of society»
— Ancient Egyptian religion. Wikipedia. Retrieved February 7, 2015.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_religion
Rhys Taylor: "What evidence do you have that scientists are behaving like this ?"
ReplyDelete— I can see quite often scientists and organisations that include scientists that give their support to government power. For every issue those scientists will advocate for more oversight, more government regulation, more funding, more interventionist policies in the market and in the economy, more bureaucracy, rarely ever they will support an alternative solution to fix a problem.
Sometimes, their support may even harm scientific inquiry. For instance, their involvement in ethics committees and animal care and use committees (what prevents the most informative testing of many products or diminishes the informative value of its results), their support to the increased demands for testing new drugs in clinical trials, what increases research costs, limits the spectrum of potential drugs to be developed to those more profitable that are expected to offer a positive return of investment.
Likewise, many scientists give support to some projects of dubious scientific value that are very costly to the taxpayer, such as the ISS, whose primary purpose is to be used as government propaganda, or flu vaccination campaigns to the elderly, for which there's no evidence of its effectiveness.
Some other examples in which scientists have supported government interests (that is, to keep its power and expand it wherever possible): gun control laws, socialised medical care, compulsory and socialised healthcare insurance, anti-discrimination laws (or positive discrimination laws), welfare state policies, minimum wage laws, banning on a number of recreational drugs, restrictions on the distribution of a number of other drugs, government college loans, public schooling, government oversight over student curricula.
Here are some highlights from a letter of resignation by a graduate student, who quit just a few weeks shy of getting their PhD ...
ReplyDeletehttps://plus.google.com/108466508041843226480/posts/StWeeWPhhU6
Very enlightening, and corroborates much of what Jeff Schmidt has said.