Kelvin MacKenzie has attempted to smear 1.6 billion Muslims in suggesting they are inherently violent. He has attempted to smear half of them further by suggesting they are helpless slaves. And he has attempted to smear me by suggesting I would sympathise with a terrorist.
The truth is I always pride myself on journalistic integrity regardless of who I’m interviewing or what story I’m covering.
That is my mission at Channel 4 News. I will not be deterred in this mission by the efforts of those who find the presence of Muslims in British cultural life offensive.
THE TRUTH? I confess. I pi**ed on Kelvin MacKenzie’s apparent ambitions to force anyone who looks a little different off our screens, and I’ll keep doing it.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/fatima-manji-truth-kelvin-mackenzies-11635404
Can a Christian do that in any Islamic country without accusation from the people? Tolerance should be about mutual respect. There is a saying, 'when you are in Rome, do as the Romans do'. However, I am not justifying Mackenzie's blatant stereotype.
ReplyDeleteEven if they can't, so what ? I don't want an intolerant country.
ReplyDeleteRhys Taylor There is a clear religious line to that that says - do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
ReplyDeleteThe society is made up of different people. It is easier to say there is nothing wrong whereas there is a lot of infighting going on routinely unaddressed. It is you who don't want intolerant country not Mackenzie and Islamic communities. Perhaps, he wants mutual respect from the tone of his speech though.
The tone of his speech sounds to me like he just hates Muslims. I'm not seeing anything more complicated here - he chose to be offended by an entirely non-violent news reporter and directly imply she's a terrorist sympathiser. If he wants an intolerant country, well, screw him. History has shown time and time and time again where that leads. I have no patience for it.
ReplyDeleteRhys Taylor Why didn't she dress the way it is done in the West? This is a public television channel that reaches large audience in the UK or even beyond. My understanding is that it is not a religious station and such mode of dressing should be removed or banned because of people who disagree with it. Doesn't it look awkward to dress in such a way in an English TV station?
ReplyDeleteWhy it look the slightest bit awkward ? In Cardiff I see dozens (if not hundreds) of people dressed like this every day. It's normal. She's not ramming her religion down anyone's throat by covering her hair. Why should anyone pander to people offended by someone covering their hair ?
ReplyDeleteAlso, this : http://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2016/04/16/ask-ethan-why-dont-you-look-like-a-scientist/#7681a5ee272c
ReplyDeleteRhys Taylor It looks awkward for a television station anchor person irrespective of what people dresses look like in the street. Channel 4 is a working environment and we should learn to distinguish it from the general street when making examples.
ReplyDeleteThe scarf is very symbolic and I don't think she will remove it if she is told to do so. That goes a long way to explain, possibly, fanaticism tied to this so called 'unoffensive covering of hair' because we all know what it is all about.
People are angry with the waves of attack on innocent people by extremist group around Europe and some are taking it far to crack down on anything closely related or has to do with it.
We shouldn't be quick to lay blames or being sentimental about all of Mackenzie's points.He wants something that is disturbing about terror attacks in Europe to change but, I think he is doing it the wrong way.
Rhys Taylor I quite get your point. I am an avid reader and follower of Ethan Siegel's works and some of his friends in area of Astrophysics. He wouldn't dress like that to an important occasion though.
ReplyDeleteThat link doesn't explain why she has to dress like that.
Why does it look awkward ?
ReplyDeleteThat goes a long way to explain, possibly, fanaticism tied to this so called 'unoffensive covering of hair' because we all know what it is all about.
I don't.
The right way to deal with Islamophobia is not to pretend Islam doesn't exist, but to embrace people for who they are. We must break this horrible, destructive notion that all Muslims are in some way culpable for the actions of a tiny, tiny minority. The only way to do that is to remind people that the vast majority of Muslims live completely normal lives and do the same jobs as everyone else, not by forcing them to comply with existing standards. It is precisely because she's doing a very public job that she should be allowed to wear this if she wants - Muslims have to be seen to be more than terrorists. She's covering her hair, not her face or eyes. There are Muslims in the UK who choose to wear the full burka and those who wear no special garments at all. That should be their choice, not society's.
Rhys Taylor It means misogynistic practice, oppression of women and fanaticism.
ReplyDeleteYou are missing the point. That is, Muslims too have to embrace the society they live in if they must been seen as parts of it. You don't distance yourself(seeing not non-conforming people as infidels) from a society and expected to be seen as part of it. That is the reality.
It is easier said than done. You are not proffering solution if you continue to ignore the reality of this issue. I am not siding with any political correctness but this is a problem that needs the right solution - by Muslims embracing the society they find themselves. It is not only in UK but around the world. This is not actually about their faith but about their attitude.
Let's be clear, she can do that on the street without being harassed. At least, there are people out there who are almost dressed naked and that is their prerogative. Not in the working place in this case.
It means misogynistic practice, oppression of women and fanaticism.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't seem to mean that for many Muslim women.
If society values freedom of expression and tolerance - which it professes to, loudly and often - then why on earth shouldn't people be allowed to cover their hair ? They are embracing society by dressing how they chose, not distancing themselves from it. If everyone else can dress how they please, then so should they.
Rhys Taylor Let me put it this way. The subjugation of Muslim women has often been tied to this 'unoffensive covering of hair' and perhaps other factors included. Thinking otherwise is turning a blind eye to this matter in question. You must have heard about 'honour killing' in an Islamic nation.
ReplyDeleteFree societies have rules as well and we shouldn't make it looks as though the 'freedom' in freedom of expression is all about mode of dressing(in all walks of life). To be free in this regard is to be also willing to follow the tenet of the society you are in as well and that is not holding back your human rights.
They are distancing themselves by their attitude not by their faith. They can dress as they want in the street without being questioned - that which I quite agree with not in the working places. Other people working in that station have religion and culture too and they aren't doing that. This tolerant thing is being taken out of context here.
And I've seen people dressed like this in plenty of other jobs all the time - banks, shops, etc. It's perfectly normal. It makes no sense to say someone can't dress like this on TV.
ReplyDeleteRhys Taylor Many are. I have a good experience of this because I have been to many Islamic countries and know much about them. Seriously, you are arguing on this based on online information. Some Islamic families see it offensive for a woman not to cover her hair.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, I never said anything on her working place colleagues agreeing to her right of wearing scarf.
Whether it is right or not it is awkward from what it represents for a Muslim woman. I have seen where a Muslim lady wishing she could expose her hair and let in the fresh air. You are only speaking for her while there are many of them living a life of oppression based on this simple fact.
How would those living with this form of oppression view the free world stand on this issue?
Rhys Taylor People dress like that mostly in Islamic nations or organizations.
ReplyDeleteTo say many Muslim women don't have qualm about it is completely absurd. Many cover their hair not to be seen as infidels or simply disobedient to the community. You are ignoring the oppression tied to this head scarf.
Online information like, oh, I don't know, just choosing any random article here... the woman in the original story wants to wear the scarf. So did my Muslim friends in school, actually.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, I never said anything on her working place colleagues agreeing to her right of wearing scarf.
Well you keep saying that it "looks awkward" and that she's somehow distancing herself from society, whereas the people she works with disagree !
I have seen where a Muslim lady wishing she could expose her hair and let in the fresh air.
Yeah, fine, but as I said, we're talking about Britain here, not Iran. Many Muslim women do feel free not wear it. As it says in the BBC article, she only "normally" wears the scarf. It's her choice. Not yours, not societies. Hers. You are trying desperately to come up with a reason to allow discrimination and I don't understand why.
Rhys Taylor Using random examples by quoting links and forgetting large number of women being oppressed based on head scarves in many Islamic countries is actually the bone of contention at that particular point in time of the argument.
ReplyDeleteEven if she wants to wear it deep down in her mind that doesn't mean there is no evidence of oppression tied to it. She is even in a better position to fight the problem yet she is so much concerned about inflammatory speech from Mackenzie. I doubt she understands what freedom for all really means.
Actually, it looks awkward to me and I think many other people would agree to that from a reasonable perspectives as I have expressed in my previous posts.
It is also in Britain Mackenzie sees it not to fit. The attack happened in France and the same nation banned the head scarf from the public.
It could be anybody choice to come with ragtag clothes to the office but it is not done.
How am I allowing discrimination when I ask for the freedom from oppression of all Muslim women? It is rhetorical question though. That last line of your post says the opposite of what I am opting for.
The problem is choice. The journalist, the woman in the TED talk, and my friends all freely choose to wear the hijab. That it is used to repress other women is actually not particularly relevant - this woman is telling you in no uncertain terms that she isn't being repressed. You can't insist someone is being repressed when they're telling you they're making a free choice. The issue in other countries shouldn't be banning the scarf, but making that choice possible for everyone.
ReplyDeleteNo, it doesn't look awkward in Britain unless you're an islamophobe like McKenzie. That really is the only sensible explanation, since the Queen (like probably 90% of the older generation) wears something very similar.
https://www.google.com/search?q=old+lady+head+scarf&biw=1280&bih=631&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwj46pn8uYLOAhVB1hQKHRvtDNEQ_AUIBygC
You are allowing discrimination because you insist that she should be denied a choice of what to wear that others are permitted.
Rhys Taylor I didn't disagree with problem of choice in this argument. The hidden fact I am trying to make clear to you is concerning head scarf as a part of the symbols of oppression for Islamic women is real.
ReplyDeleteWhether the journalist or TED-talk speaker made the choice to wear them, which I know that there are other factors they wouldn't talk about due to community influences surrounding head scarf(hijab to be precise)..
I speak to you based on the same choice you talk about, that it is awkward to see it in a western TV station and I think many people also see it to be so in working places.
Trying to use her royal highness, the queen, dress(costume) and other older generations to support your point didn't say much. This is a very rare thing to see in the television station environment in the West. You know that very well.
I never insist she should be denied her rights but I said it is awkward and ask for the reason she is not conforming to the society. Which I see as parts of what is distancing Muslim from Western society. You likely made that up for me to look like I am allowing discrimination whereas the opposite is what I am doing here.
Have to go out now, will respond when time permits.
ReplyDeleteRhys Taylor All right. Me too. Have a nice time out there.
ReplyDeleteGreat to see lots of men talking about a woman's clothes even if some of them are way off the boil.
ReplyDeleteShe looked really stylish which is more than anybody's going to say about McKenzie.
Patrick Johnson OK, I don't know what your intentions are here, but I don't make things up to try and imply you're saying something you're not. I wouldn't wish to do anything for the sort. However, I have to interpret what you're saying as best as I can. I can't do anything else. And it looks very much to me like you're trying to apologise for McKenzie's very clearly Islamophobic remarks. Maybe that's not your intention, but it honestly looks that way to me. OK, you're not insisting that things should be a certain way - fair enough, but you're still advocating it. Hence my arguments all still stand.
ReplyDeleteThe scarf may or may not be seen as a symbol of oppression in certain countries, but it isn't in the West. I have given you examples ("random" links ? no, evidence !) of intelligent women who clearly do not see it as oppressive; it's not much of an assumption that their communities also don't see it as such - otherwise they wouldn't wear it.
Muslim women in Britain choose to wear the hijab in all kinds of professional situations, as I have described. Even if it's novel for a newsreader to wear it (and it isn't the slightest bit unusual for them to interview women who wear it), so what ? This is offensive/awkward because, what ? Because they're on TV instead of, say, in a bank ? How does it become awkward because they're not doing some other professional job ? No, the only thing this would do is pander to islamophobes and other bigots who insist that everyone should be just like them. By advocating that they not wear it, you are indeed taking away their right to choose. There's no getting around that.
And choose they most certainly do. I had a friend who wore the full burka most of the time, but that didn't stop her from removing it when she needed to.
Choosing to wear or not wear the hijab is not distancing herself from society or failing to assimilate, no matter how much you insist that it is. Assimilation is about so, so much more than headgear. There's no way you can justify why one innocent person should be denied a choice that another is entitled to. You think it looks awkward ? Well, that's tough on you - I think kilts look awkward, but you don't hear me ever saying that people shouldn't wear kilts. Oh, but you think it looks awkward for the sole reason she's a newsreader ? I very much doubt it, unless you think something magical and special happens because she's behind the camera. A tolerant and inclusive society has to allow people to do things which are different from the norm, and wearing a head scarf (which people are completely used to seeing in other professional environments) is not the same as wearing shabby clothes. Maybe it's novel for you to see this, but it isn't for me. Get used to it.