I'm tired of arguing with Brexiteers because they keep raising the same flawed arguments over and over again. So here is a set of stock responses; they each have independent internal page links so they can be read separately as necessary. Jenny Winder may find this useful.
http://astrorhysy.blogspot.cz/2017/03/brexit-faqs.html
Like arguing with Trump supporters?
ReplyDeletePolitics and religion have more in common that most people suppose. The sovereign rule of proselytising is this: never attempt to tell someone else they're wrong. Accept their base desires as somewhat rational: allow me to demonstrate:
ReplyDeleteIt is the will of the people: Now that's a religious argument, one we've heard a lot from various Islamic Republics and Christian Nation types. The UK does have a state religion, Elizabeth II also bears the title Dei gratia regina fidei defensor , by the grace of God defender of the faith.
If, by "the will of the people", we are to understand the Brexiteers to wish the UK to be a sovereign nation, the EU does insist on free movement of EU citizens. EU has nothing to say on the intake of refugees. That's for each member nation to decide. If anything, the UK has more power within EU than outside it: the fact that so many UK citizens live outside the UK implies migration of peoples goes both ways.
The "only we all just came together" argument is mendacious bollox. Brexit made all sorts of glib promises about NHS and various other domestic policies - it's all lies. And the Brexiteers know it. The UK is already unravelling at the seams: Scotland will break loose, as soon as they've gotten their ducks in a row. There's no common cause: the UK is an artifact of James the First. It was always an unhappy marriage and the Brexiteers think they can once again provoke Scotland without consequences. They'll soon find out otherwise.
Dan Weese Well, I'll probably add specifics about the EU itself at a later date. But in context, "it's the will of the people" is invariably used as means of invoking the result of the vote as an absurd absolute. When they talk of sovereignty, they go for "take back control" without understanding what control it is they want to take back, or from whom, or who to give it to. Though I should point out that there were quite a lot of calls for Britain to assume a greater leadership role within Europe, which ought to have appealed to concerns about sovereignty but apparently didn't.
ReplyDeleteI've almost entirely given up on Brexiteers, they seem to talk in nothing but jibber-jabber. As some idiot once phrased it (deliberately trolling an unrelated discussion), "The people are always right. All 17 million of them."
You just can't argue with "logic" like that. I just finished reading Plato's Euthydemus, a really masterful dialogue in which Socrates argues with two incredibly intelligent yet outrageously stupid people who believe that if a man knows one thing, he knows everything, and that false knowledge is impossible (it includes the memorable phrase, "is your mother the mother of sea urchins ?"). When asked to demonstrate their infinite knowledge, the unfortunate idiots naturally fall silent, but still insist they know everything.
Neither the facts nor rhetoric seem capable of persuading some people. So I'll stick to the facts here, possibly revising the phrasing to trim it down and get as much as possible to the bare essentials. Maybe it will work, maybe not; at least it will save me a bit of typing.
By the way, have you seen this ?
https://plus.google.com/u/0/+RhysTaylorRhysy/posts/Eu4GgaHDDEf?cfem=1
Rhys Taylor : yeah, I saw that. I have my own extended riff on what constitutes Belief, probably not exactly congruent with yours. Persuasion has exactly nothing to do with facts, I've come to believe. This has been known since rhetoric became a discipline. I'll give it some more thought and write something, mentioning you....
ReplyDeleteDan Weese As a devout agnostic, my beliefs on belief are complicated. :) I'd like to hear your opinion on persuasion even if I don't agree with it. In the meantime, here's an old analysis of mine on persuasion you may not have seen :
ReplyDeletehttp://astrorhysy.blogspot.cz/2015/12/persuasion-users-guide-to-manipulating.html
Rhys Taylor ... heh, just finished up your Persuasion User's Guide. First reaction: the Dan Weese Logic Bifurcator distinguishes mere Argument from Authority from the Argument from Experience by counting the number of scars on the arguer's arse. Those scars are the supporting evidence for taking his argument seriously, if not accepting it, entirely.
ReplyDelete