[I don't agree with veganism, but I want to make it clear that it's only a particular brand of militant vegans that I would label as idiotic.
"When you're being called murderers and rapists, that is overstepping the mark, for fairly obvious reasons," says Alison Waugh, a trainee farmer in Northumberland. She has received death threats due to her work and told the Victoria Derbyshire programme other farmers are feeling threatened. "Which is quite ironic from people that want peace for animals, but then they tell you, 'I hope you and your family go die in a hole for what you do,'" she says.
Lead activist and Instagram star Joey Carbstron : "Slaughterhouse workers are a product of a sick society who want to consume animal flesh."
That's too idiotic to dignify with a response.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42833132
Alison Waugh: "…that is overstepping the mark, for fairly obvious reasons,"
ReplyDelete— Not an "argument":
«Description: Making the claim that something is "self-evident" when it is not self-evident in place of arguing a claim with reason.
[…]
Explanation: People often confuse their own subjective feelings and interpretations with self-evidence.
[…]
Example #2:
Sara: No human should ever kill another human being.
Dottie: Why not?
Sara: It's self-evident.
Explanation: The fallacy is in the implied claim that the argument needs no evidence or explanation because it is "self-evident."
Tip: If you can't explain something, that doesn't mean you are dealing with something that is self-evident; it could just be your failure to explain something.»
— Bo Bennett, PhD. "Appeal to Self-evident Truth." "Logically Fallacious." eBookIt.com (2012)
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/212/Appeal-to-Self-evident-Truth
Alison Waugh: "Which is quite ironic from people that want peace for animals, but then they tell you, 'I hope you and your family go die in a hole for what you do,'"
— No, it is not ironic. Causing some distress to numerous farm animal breeders and their families (and even to many meat eaters) doesn't defeat the purpose of preventing the crowding and slaughtering of billions and billions of animals to minimise animal suffering (human and non-human combined). Anti-cancer therapy isn't "ironic" either, regardless of how painful it may be.
Rhys Taylor: "That's too idiotic to dignify with a response."
— Not an argument either.
A treatment which inflicts pain in order to relieve pain is most definitely ironic. Being ironic doesn't mean it isn't correct.
ReplyDeleteInsults are self-evidently not arguments. I don't add a label of intent when I call something 'idiotic' because it's blooming obvious that it isn't an argument.
Rhys Taylor: "A treatment which inflicts pain in order to relieve pain is most definitely ironic."
ReplyDelete— I guess you may mean "paradoxical":
paradoxical: "seemingly absurd or self-contradictory."
ironic: "happening in a way contrary to what is expected, and typically causing wry amusement because of this."
Inflicting pain in order to relieve future greater pain and prolong life may be seemingly self-contradictory, but the effects of anti-cancer therapy aren't contrary to what those who perform such treatment expect (except for those cases in which the therapy doesn't work).
Rhys Taylor: "I don't add a label of intent when I call something 'idiotic' because it's blooming obvious that it isn't an argument."
— So what is your argument to falsify that slaughterhouses (and therefore, slaughterhouse workers) are a product of (industrialised, urban) societies that want (rather than need) to consume animal meat? Apparently, the first slaughterhouses weren't constructed until the second half of the 19th century:
en.wikipedia.org - Slaughterhouse - Wikipedia
Zephyr López Cervilla Ironic and paradox are synonyms. "Ironic" is a much more subtle and ambiguous word but it is used absolutely correctly here. One would not naively think that causing pain should relieve pain; it is an odd and unexpected result unless one is familiar with the treatment - but it would still be ironic even so.
ReplyDeleteMy statement, "That's too idiotic to dignify with a response" clearly expresses that I'm only stating my opinion and have no intention of justifying that opinion, any more than if I'd shouted, "DOWN WITH COMMUNISM !" on the streets and expected to immediately have a detailed discussion about it with a communist. Now I might have considered justifying my opinion, but you went down the failed grammar Nazi route, which has the exact opposite effect of persuasion. I suggest not being a grammar Nazi in the future.
The route you could have taken to get an actual debate going would have been to ditch the pedantry and focus on the animal suffering. You could have mentioned alternatives to meat consumption and its pros and cons. You should have focused on the "sick society" part of the quote rather than going with the slaughterhouse element; the idea that societies need to be sick in order to want to consume animal flesh is the bit I found idiotic. Perhaps he didn't mean that - maybe he meant that it was the production of slaughterhouses that indicated a sick society rather than the desire for animal meat itself. No idea. You could have taken that angle and said something like, "it's not the desire for meat that's necessarily sick, it's the industrial scale slaughter of animals".
But you didn't. You went with pedantic, long-winded bullshitting instead. I'm aware that there's an asymmetry in demanding a more conciliatory tone to counter an aggressive one, which is in fact very ironic, but there we go.
BupSahn Sunim, words are not defined by the State.
ReplyDeleteRhys Taylor: " Ironic and paradox are synonyms."
ReplyDelete— Nope. "Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur."
Rhys Taylor: "You could have mentioned alternatives to meat consumption and its pros and cons."
— Why should I? I wasn't trying to to give a lesson on nutrition. FYI, you don't need any meat "alternatives", you just need vitamin B12 (and nutritious foods, just like with any other diet), which isn't even present in sufficient amounts (i.e., sufficient in order to reach the recommended allowance) in most commonly consumed meats (and dairy) in industrialised economies:
«It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity. Low intake of saturated fat and high intakes of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, soy products, nuts, and seeds (all rich in fiber and phytochemicals) are characteristics of vegetarian and vegan diets that produce lower total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels and better serum glucose control. These factors contribute to reduction of chronic disease. Vegans need reliable sources of vitamin B-12, such as fortified foods or supplements. »
— Melina V, Craig W, Levin S. "Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: Vegetarian Diets." J Acad Nutr Diet (2016 Dec) vol. 116 (12) pp. 1970-1980 DOI: 10.1016/j.jand.2016.09.025
http://doi.org.sci-hub.hk/10.1016/j.jand.2016.09.025
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704
Vitamin B12 daily recommended allowance in adults = 2.4 µg:
https://ods.od.nih.gov/pdf/factsheets/VitaminB12-Consumer.pdf
Amount present in 0.9 kg of uncooked breaded chicken breast:
https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/1057
Amount present in 1.0 kg of raw cured pork:
https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/2616
Amount present in 260 g of unprepared pork sausage:
https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/1672
Amount present in 0.6 L of milk, 2% fat, with added nonfat milk solids:
https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/73
«Certain groups may not get enough vitamin B12 or have trouble absorbing it:
• Many older adults, who do not have enough hydrochloric acid in their stomach to absorb the vitamin B12 naturally present in food. People over 50 should get most of their vitamin B12 from fortified foods or dietary supplements because, in most cases, their bodies can absorb vitamin B12 from these sources»
https://ods.od.nih.gov/pdf/factsheets/VitaminB12-Consumer.pdf
«If you are over age 50, the Institute of Medicine recommends that you get extra B12 from a supplement, since you may not be able to absorb enough of the vitamin through foods. A standard multivitamin should do the trick.»
ReplyDeletehttps://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/vitamin-b12-deficiency-can-be-sneaky-harmful-201301105780
Rhys Taylor: "You should have focused on the "sick society" part…"
— Why should I? What a "sick society" is or isn't is utterly subjective. What means that neither can I demonstrate she's right nor can you falsify she isn't (regardless of how many times you qualify her quasi-response "idiotic").
Rhys Taylor: "But you didn't."
— That's because I'm not a robot programmed to do what you wish or expect me to do.
Rhys Taylor: "You went with pedantic,…"
— Shooting the messenger is a common sign/"tell" for cognitive dissonance:
«If you were paying attention during the past year, you learned facts don’t matter to our decisions. We think they do, but they don’t. At least not for topics in which we are emotionally invested, such as politics. (Obviously facts do matter to the outcomes. But not to decisions.)
[…]
Generally, you can’t change people’s minds, but you can back them into a corner and make them show a “tell” for cognitive dissonance. That’s essentially a white flag that says, “I have no logical argument, so I will say something ridiculous and act as though it is not.”
The problem with cognitive dissonance is that it can be hard to know whether your opponent is experiencing it or you are. It looks exactly the same to you. The person in the illusion can’t tell the difference.
[…]
You can detect cognitive dissonance by the following tells:
[…]
Attack the Messenger
When people realize their arguments are not irrational, they attack the messenger on the other side. If you have been well-behaved in a debate, and you trigger an oversized personal attack, it means you won. When people have facts and reasons in their armory, they use them first. When they run out of rational arguments, they attack the messenger. That is the equivalent of throwing the gun at the monster after you run out of bullets.»
— Scott Adams. "How to Know You Won a Political Debate on the Internet." Scott Adams' Blog (2017-05-15)
http://blog.dilbert.com/2017/05/15/how-to-know-you-won-a-political-debate-on-the
Here's a bunch of dictionary references demonstrating that irony and paradox are synonyms.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-thesaurus/irony
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/irony
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/thesaurus/irony
For the rest, I'm not going to bother. I don't believe your arguments are made in good faith. Thread muted.
Rhys Taylor: "Here's a bunch of dictionary references demonstrating that irony and paradox are synonyms."
ReplyDelete— Not in Spanish (nor other languages derived from Latin, the language those English words come from):
http://www.wordreference.com/sinonimos/irónico
http://www.wordreference.com/sinonimos/paradójico
https://www.etymonline.com/word/irony
https://www.etymonline.com/word/paradox
Rhys Taylor: "For the rest, I'm not going to bother."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes
Rhys Taylor: "I don't believe your arguments are made in good faith."
— My intentions are beside the point.
Rhys Taylor: "Thread muted."
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/EPob3NmnKpnzvVt9KzLeEkV3L8JFYXO628vIC4dDJZRZ1KrYO8aXWFj0IuLQJer8sCr9HZFSjAimU8HfjVp9ghqrCEovN-Smj0M=s0
BupSahn Sunim, did the Vikings have a state?:
ReplyDelete«Viking custom, typical of Germanic, distinguished morð (Old Norse) "secret slaughter," from vig (Old Norse) "slaying." The former involved concealment, or slaying a man by night or when asleep, and was a heinous crime. The latter was not a disgrace, if the killer acknowledged his deed, but he was subject to vengeance or demand for compensation.»
etymonline.com/word/murder
etymonline.com - murder | Origin and meaning of murder by Online Etymology Dictionary
BupSahn Sunim, correct. The State doesn't decide for me what murder means. Likewise with other terms such as freedom, justice, consent, voluntary, contract, coercion, property, public, stealing, kidnap, torture, individual, will, power, authority, trade, information, communication, fact, credible, trustworthy, safe, truth, etc.
ReplyDeleteYou're free (or not) to let others decide for you.
BupSahn Sunim, your alleged counter-examples can be all distilled into one word: "impunity". The fact that the State kidnaps, coercively indoctrinates, steals, and murders with impunity doesn't change the nature of those deeds. If anything, the one who lives in an imaginary world in which the State is beyond any accountability expected of the rest of the mortals is you.
ReplyDeleteBupSahn Sunim, your appeal to popularity (or to normality) is ludicrous:
ReplyDelete«Using the popularity of a premise or proposition as evidence for its truthfulness. This is a fallacy which is very difficult to spot because our “common sense” tells us that if something is popular, it must be good/true/valid, but this is not so, especially in a society where clever marketing, social and political weight, and money can buy popularity.»
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/40/Appeal-to-Popularity
«Using social norms to determine what is good or bad. It is the idea that normality is the standard of goodness. This is fallacious because social norms are not the same as norms found in nature or norms that are synonymous with the ideal function of a created system. The conclusion, "therefore, it is good" is often unspoken, but clearly implied.»
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/37/Appeal-to-Normality
On the other hand, where did you get that seven billion people obey the State? If that were so, millions of cops and occupation military troopers would spend the day doing nothing.